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NEAL CONAN, HOST: This
is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Washington. Last week on the
first day of the sex abuse trial of former Penn State assistant football
coach Jerry Sandusky, a 28-year-old man referred to as Victim Four in
court papers took the stand and offered graphic detail of years of
abuse.
He also expressed regret for not
coming forward earlier. He told the jury he had spent, quote, so many
years burying this in the back of my head forever that when he heard
there were other cases like his, he felt responsible.
But
his reluctance is not uncommon. Earlier this month, an article in the
New York Times raised allegations of widespread sex abuse of studies at
the Horace Mann School in New York City, most of it in the 1970s and
'80s. Psychologists say that many people sexually abused as children are
silenced by fear and shame and never reveal what happened. Those who do
can carry the secret for years or even decades.
If this is your story, give us a call, 800-989-8255. Email us,
talk@npr.org.
You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org.
Later in the program, the art of the ultimate counterfeiter, but we
begin with Sarah Pleydell, who joins us here in Studio 3A. Thanks very
much for coming in.
SARAH PLEYDELL: Hi.
CONAN: And this is your story.
PLEYDELL: Yes, it is.
CONAN: When did you become aware as an adult that you needed to say something?
PLEYDELL: Oh, well into my 20s and into my 30s. It was an experience that, you know, had lain buried for 25, 30 years.
CONAN: What happened, briefly?
PLEYDELL:
I grew up in a household in London, in the '50s, '60s. My parents were
professionals. My father was one of those sort of debonair charmers, you
know, sort of a Cary Grant kind of type. But he was a profound drunk.
And my mother couldn't stand him. He totally exasperated her, and she
would, you know, fly into a rage and pack up and leave.
And
so he repeatedly abused my sister and me between the ages of eight and
11. I was left to give him dinner and put him to bed. I think one of the
most poignant pieces of it is that in that kind of strange, childish
heroism, I thought that if I were his caretaker that I could prevent him
doing any damage to my sister.
CONAN: So you didn't know at the time that your sister was being abused, as well.
PLEYDELL:
No, and when I discovered in my late 20s, it was just horrifying. It
was, you know, one of the most devastating things.
CONAN: How did you find out?
PLEYDELL:
Well, we didn't talk about it until we were in our late 20s, and by
then, I was flooded with the kind of graphic dissociative images that
survivors, you know, are flooded with. And I began to share them with
her.
But up until that point, you know, none
of it had really made any sense to me. I think that people don't speak
up because of the way that sexual abuse impacts the body and the mind
and the heart. My father was, when he wasn't drunk, my primary
caregiver. I adored him. I was the apple of his eye, and the idea that
he could betray me in this way was unthinkable. You know, I just
couldn't engage it as a complete thought. And so my mind just scrambled
up the images, scrambled them all up.
CONAN: And what did your sister say when you started to talk about it?
PLEYDELL:
She asked me what I remembered, and I told her the kind of strange,
dissociative, graphic images that I had that, you know, they were out of
sequence, that didn't make any sense but were very vivid, had, you
know, free-floating sort of sensory horror to them, smells and sounds
and words. And, you know, she sort of revealed that she had the same
things, the same things.
CONAN: And that's the devastating moment.
PLEYDELL: Yeah, well, we helped each other piece together what our immature brains could not do.
CONAN: Were your parents still alive at that point?
PLEYDELL:
My father, because he was an addled drunk, unfortunately, well, in some
ways fortunately, had a massive stroke in his 50s. So by the time I was
ready to talk to him, he didn't really know who I was or not for more
than five minutes. But my mother was still alive and still very
together.
CONAN: And did you talk to her?
PLEYDELL:
Finally in my 30s I made the choice to talk to her. I don't think it's
the only choice to be made, but I did make that choice. And I confronted
her when she came to visit me. And she at first was very defensive. She
was - denied it, and I was very angry. So I can see why, in some ways.
And
gradually she accepted it, and then she became incredibly sorry that
she had not left my father earlier because she did leave him. And to
fair to her, I mean, the symptoms that we were demonstrating would now
be considered classic symptoms of child abuse, I mean, bedwetting and
anorexia and all the rest of it, but then, you know, she just knew we
were being hurt, and she did kick him out.
But
we did this over a period of 10 years. Every time she came, we would go
through this until finally I felt I'd done it enough.
CONAN:
The range of emotions that must have warped back and forth between you
and your mother, and your sister of course, too, feeling abandoned, lack
of protection, a mother's obligation, her guilt yet her own need to be
out of a situation that was clearly - she didn't know what was going on
but clearly not healthy for her, either.
PLEYDELL:
No, no, but it was the '60s, and it was a hard thing for a woman to get
up and leave a husband. And the information wasn't out there. So, you
know, I respect her for doing it; I wish to hell she'd done it a whole
lot earlier.
CONAN: We want to hear
from people in the audience today whose story this is, too. Give us a
call if you've kept these memories quiet for years or decades
afterwards, 800-989-8255. Email us,
talk@npr.org. And we'll start with Al(ph), Al's calling us from Phoenix.
AL:
Yeah, thank you for taking my call. I was abused by several different
people, cousins and neighbors and a few other people, as was my wife.
And she was repeatedly abused by someone that she had babysat for, which
led to later on choosing I guess abusive relationships as an adult.
And
by the time she was really ready to deal with what had happened, when
she and I came together, and she sort of started trying to heal and deal
with things, the statute of limitations had run out to prosecute this
man. And he's now in his late 60s and is now married to a 19-year-old
girl, and we have since also found out that in the years when my wife
had moved away from where he was, he had abused several other girls.
And
to me the statute of limitations is extremely problematic not only
because you can't prosecute someone but because it sort of implies that
the victim should have gotten over it already.
CONAN: It does vary state to state.
AL:
If you haven't done something about it in a certain amount of time,
then you really couldn't have felt that bad about it is what it seems
like.
CONAN: I understand, just - I don't
think you could hear me, Al, but it does vary from state to state. In
some states, there's no statute of limitations on rape, as there is none
on murder.
AL: Right. Where we are, it is, so...
CONAN: How did you and your wife find each other?
AL: How did we meet, or how did we find each other?
CONAN: Well, how did you find out that you shared this background?
AL:
Well, I think I have dealt with mine much earlier. I've lived on my own
since I was a very, very young man and also had a lot of friends that
had been molested, and I had helped some friends sort of move out of
their homes or move out of abusive relationships. And so I think very
early on in my relationship with my wife, I recognized the personality
traits.
And she and I had been friends for
many, many years, and she had been dating someone else, and I had
recognized the type of relationship that she was in was also very
abusive and a symptom of someone who had been abused as a younger
person.
CONAN: Well, David - Al, thanks very much for sharing your story, and good luck to you both.
AL: Thank you very much.
CONAN:
And Sarah Pleydell, he raises an interesting question. The effects
later on, abusive relationships, clearly in your case it could have led
to alcoholism, abusive relationships, a lot of things.
PLEYDELL:
You develop a vulnerable personality, and you're susceptible to
patterns that have been imprinted from childhood. And it takes a lot of
work to change those patterns.
CONAN: David
Lisak is an associate professor of psychology at the University of
Massachusetts Boston. He's a clinical psychologist, a founding board
member of oneinsix.org, an organization that serves men who were
sexually abused as children, and he joins us today from member station
WUSF in Tampa. Thanks very much for being with us.
DAVID LISAK: Thank you, Neal.
CONAN: And this is not just a topic you research, this is your story, too.
LISAK: That's right. I was abused when I was a kid.
CONAN: And when did you come to terms with it?
LISAK:
Well, that started really only in my late 20s into my 30s. I either
completely repressed the memories for about 25 to 27 years, and then
over the course of several years began to come to terms with it and
eventually told my surviving parent, my mother, about it.
CONAN: It was your father who abused you, too?
LISAK: No, no it wasn't. It was a babysitter, a boarder who was taken into our house to help pay the rent.
CONAN: So again, the emotions are unbelievably powerful. Your mother, again, is supposed to be your protector.
LISAK:
Yes, and one of the - you know, there are so many effects that children
who are abused suffer, both at the time and then as the years go by.
And for myself, as for so many, when you're five years old, even though
your mother does not know what's happening, you inevitably interpret it
as an abandonment, as a betrayal, and why isn't she protecting me, why
isn't somebody rescuing me from this.
And
there's really just no way that a child that young can see it as any
other - in any other way. And that really can so undermine the child's
relationship with their parents, with adults, with authorities, and that
can last a long time.
CONAN: We're
talking about carrying the painful secret of childhood sexual abuse for
years or even decades. If this is your story, give us a call,
800-989-8255. Email us,
talk@npr.org. I'm Neal Conan. Stay with us. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
CONAN:
This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan. Jerry
Sandusky's defense team continues to call witnesses in the former
assistant coach's trial on dozens of counts of alleged sexual abuse.
High-profile cases like this often spur conversations and sometimes
revelations of past abuse.
As we've
heard, victims often suffer in silence, alone, in many cases blaming
themselves. We're talking today about why it's so difficult to talk
about childhood sexual abuse and what happens when the truth comes out.
If this is your story, our phone number is 800-989-8255. Email us,
talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org.
Our
guests are Sarah Pleydell, herself a survivor of childhood sexual
abuse. She teaches writing at the University of Maryland, College Park.
And David Lisak, associate professor of psychology at the University of
Massachusetts in Boston. He researches the effects of childhood sex
abuse. He's also spoken out about his own past abuse.
And David Lisak, some of these effects down the years, they can vary with different individuals.
LISAK:
Yes, and they do, and that's an important thing to remember, that - the
circumstances of the abuse, the context in which it occurs. You know,
in my case, I was abused by somebody who was really outside the family. I
had, I at least had a mother who was a good mother in so many ways. And
in my other work, I do a lot of forensic work, I evaluate men who have
committed serious crimes, most of whom have also been terribly abused as
kids.
But most of them had no parents who
were there to help them in any way, and that's one of the factors that
can really alter what happens over the long run. So despite the abuse, I
was able to get an education and get a foundation under me and recover
from those experiences, and that's not always possible.
CONAN: That vulnerable personality that Sarah was talking about a moment ago, was that you too?
LISAK:
Oh yes, for many, many years, and you know, to this day, you know, I -
I'm an adult, I'm a professional, I do all kinds of research, I do
forensic work and so forth, but the abuse lives on in me. And you know,
there are still nights when I wake up with nightmares because of things
that have triggered me during the day, and that's just part of, at least
in my case, that's part of the reality that I live with, and it is for
many survivors.
They can thrive in many ways but still suffer many of the symptoms.
CONAN: Sarah Pleydell, you were nodding there, yeah.
PLEYDELL:
My sister has a very strong image. She says that childhood trauma is
like a house with a horrible room in the middle of it, and you do your
very best to keep the doors locked, but every now and again you wake up
and there you are, and you're eight years old, and your heart's racing,
and it's happening all over again, and you have to very slowly and
carefully turn on the light and pick yourself up and take yourself out
of there, and the room never goes away.
But the house changes, and the house over time can become a safer place.
CONAN: Let's get Tammy on the line. Tammy's calling us from Buffalo.
TAMMY: Hello.
CONAN: Hi, you're on the air, Tammy, go ahead, please.
TAMMY:
(Unintelligible) bring back so many memories because as a child going
through the same experiences, and coming from an African-American
community, sometimes you could be alienated when you're up front about
the experiences that happened to you as a child, especially molestation.